Jomsa is in the house

[iller]

Yeah the dredging is a bit complicated matter. I hear also from LKL that they or someone over there is also asking about it from official govermental ... people. We need a clear answer because as you might allready know. Gold panners seem to have a habit to end up in court even with minor causes. So need to be really careful about this. Word of Pasi is not enought as it is not his place to say about it i think. As it is ELY (NTM-centralernas) bussnies to think about that stuff.

As you know we discussed this already but for the others. Pasi told me explicitly it's ok as long as you are on land and are not affecting the creek, basically you are digging just as normal just with another tool.

[jomsa]

As you know we discussed this already but for the others. Pasi told me explicitly it's ok as long as you are on land and are not affecting the creek, basically you are digging just as normal just with another tool.

Yes but it is not Pasi who is the governmental official who has the say in this. So his opinion is not that valid. And as we speak i just got a message from ELY (https://www.ely-keskus.fi/) from a guy who has some say in this (Rauhala Jouni) .. And i have been exchanging e-mails with him for past month, and finally he send me huge email discussing about the dredging. And i showed him in the latest message this video :

and he said it will "MOST LIKELY require water permits" (eg. machine mining permissions).  However the reply was long as F... i'll try to read it thru today with though and see if there are any loopholes.

However. I beg any of those who are thinking about this dry land dredging. Please be careful. We do not want to anger the lawman and get yet another shit storm like 2005 or 2009. Especially in Lemmenjoki as the whole future of the place seems to hang by the thread at this time.

But yeah, i'll keep digging as i still have optimistic feeling that there is loophole as there seemed to be some keywords in Rauhala's message that might be what we need to focus on.

[iller]

As you know we discussed this already but for the others. Pasi told me explicitly it's ok as long as you are on land and are not affecting the creek, basically you are digging just as normal just with another tool.

Yes but it is not Pasi who is the governmental official who has the say in this. So his opinion is not that valid. And as we speak i just got a message from ELY (https://www.ely-keskus.fi/) from a guy who has some say in this (Rauhala Jouni) .. And i have been exchanging e-mails with him for past month, and finally he send me huge email discussing about the dredging. And i showed him in the latest message this video :

and he said it will "MOST LIKELY require water permits" (eg. machine mining permissions).  However the reply was long as F... i'll try to read it thru today with though and see if there are any loopholes.

However. I beg any of those who are thinking about this dry land dredging. Please be careful. We do not want to anger the lawman and get yet another shit storm like 2005 or 2009. Especially in Lemmenjoki as the whole future of the place seems to hang by the thread at this time.

But yeah, i'll keep digging as i still have optimistic feeling that there is loophole as there seemed to be some keywords in Rauhala's message that might be what we need to focus on.

If he thinks that type of equipment would require a water permit then nearly every single high banker would need one. Sure the one you showed him is a bigger type and uses a bit more water but it still won't affect the water level or anything like that in a creek.. that's just dumb.

Show him this one too as most will not be using anything much bigger than this

[jomsa]

If he thinks that type of equipment would require a water permit then nearly every single high banker would need one.

And now you hit the nail in the head directly. This was also something Jouni expressed some concerns in. He said that even current hand mines are operating at the limits of what water may be pulled from the creeks. There is no real number on it, but he thought it is probably around 300l/min. So yeah. As i said i'll read it thru and make some sort of outline out of it and try to decode bit the law on it a bit (as he nicely linked in the law arguments also so i can check them).

[iller]

If he thinks that type of equipment would require a water permit then nearly every single high banker would need one.

And now you hit the nail in the head directly. This was also something Jouni expressed some concerns in. He said that even current hand mines are operating at the limits of what water may be pulled from the creeks. There is no real number on it, but he thought it is probably around 300l/min. So yeah. As i said i'll read it thru and make some sort of outline out of it and try to decode bit the law on it a bit (as he nicely linked in the law arguments also so i can check them).

Great, would love to read it. And even if you took up 1000L per minute it would be nothing from even a quite small creek. It would have no impact what so ever as the water is also running back into the creek again in most cases after it's settled in the settling pond.

[jomsa]

Great, would love to read it. And even if you took up 1000L per minute it would be nothing from even a quite small creek. It would have no impact what so ever as the water is also running back into the creek again in most cases after it's settled in the settling pond.

Yeah trust me i dont think it makes any sense either so i am with you on this. However tt is just how it is.

[iller]

Great, would love to read it. And even if you took up 1000L per minute it would be nothing from even a quite small creek. It would have no impact what so ever as the water is also running back into the creek again in most cases after it's settled in the settling pond.

Yeah trust me i dont think it makes any sense either so i am with you on this. However tt is just how it is.

Btw, to my understanding, the machine permit has nothing to do with how much water you use but how much material you process?

[jomsa]

Yeah just realized that Jouni speaks of two differend permits. Water and... environment? Perhaps the latter is the machine mining thingy.

[iller]

Yeah just realized that Jouni speaks of two differend permits. Water and... environment? Perhaps the latter is the machine mining thingy.

To me when i spoke to pasi we only need one permit for machines, no water permit as i understood it, it's the same permit to my understanding but i might be wrong.

This is something a guide could be very good for btw. Permit process and what permits are needed and costs, then also guides on permits needed for building stuff on the claim etc if one wants to do that..
Only thing i know about that is to never mention you are building a sauna but a washing up place

[Grävmaskinisten]

Det här är min startskärm på mobilen, alla lagar,paragrafer ja faktiskt allt även ansökan om gruvtillstånd vattenlagar hela köret och allt är skrivet på svenska.

[iller]

Det här är min startskärm på mobilen, alla lagar,paragrafer ja faktiskt allt även ansökan om gruvtillstånd vattenlagar hela köret och allt är skrivet på svenska.

Kan du skicka länkarna? Kan skicka här eller FB, lär säkert sakna ett par.

[jomsa]

Hope i got that right on the google translate. There are links to bunch of law texts? I also got some additional info.. well will get some additional info on some guy who has gone thru this process allready so i'll wait that also and try to figure it out all before submitting my own version to ELY.

[jomsa]

Okay i've skimmed thru most of the documents given to me and.. i can say now few things that i think ... like are the key things here. Now do remember that these are NOT OFFICIAL things, but are things that seemed to come up over and over again. So these are MY INTERPRETATIONS!
Also this is just for the legality of non-machine mine permitted hand operated placer mines. So if you got permits for Excavators, dont worry, just blast away according to the permit you have.

• First of all, pumping capacity should be kept well below 1000l/min. Ideally around 500l/min as it is the closely related to classic hand operated sluicing operations.
• Do not operate in flowing water (creeks, brooks, rivers, lakes any of it), and try to stay away from any flowing water as much as possible. Also recycling the dredging water IS strongly recommended. Note: It is still bit of an question as to "how far from" the flowing water.
• No additional changes to land reclamation seem to exist, so just do the same stuff as for hand operated sluicing for reclamation
• It is strongly RECOMENDED to request FREE preview from ELY on your planned operation. However the paper even if they greenlight you, it is not AN PERMIT, but an approval of your plan. Should you deviate from your plan, you could be in trouble should inspection be done on your claim (and i guess even requesting such paper will call some attention to your operation)
• For Lemmenjoki area, the ELY review will also ask the opinion of MH (Ministry of Forestry), so ... yeah, keep that in mind

So anyway, i submitted a long long very detailed plan for ELY reviewal. Magnus here on the forums knows a bit about it all ready, but yeah. I detailed the area of operations and planned equipment, cubic meters per summer, water cleaning, etc. Almost every last bit of detail. Now i am just waiting for their reply. I assume it could take months.

Depending on what the permit entails, i might make a vid for JomsaTube - ( https://www.youtube.com/c/jomsatube ) about it also... You guys think it would be interesting?